Wednesday, 4th March 1914: George Epps Repudiates Story Against Leo Frank, The Atlanta Journal

Reading Time: 33 minutes [6095 words]

SWORE LIES IN REGARD TO TIME HE SAW MARY ON APRIL 26,

HE SAYS

Newsboy

Who Figured Prominently in Trial and Whose Testimony Had Much to Do With Establishing Time of Phagan Girl's Death, Makes Startling Statements in Affidavit Produced in The Journal Today

Charges That Detective Black Persuaded Him and Solicitor Dorsey Encourage Him to Swear as He Did

LITTLE GIRL NEVER TOLD HIM SHE FEARED FRANK, SAYS LAD IN HIS STATEMENT WHICH IS SWORN TO

Leo M.

Frank, in Tower,

Discusses Nina Formby's Affidavit and Makes Charges Against the City Detective Department Judge Hill Orders Convicted Man Brought Into Court for Re-Sentence but Date Is Withheld

Rosser, in New York,

Gives Out Caustic Interview-Arnold Declares Latham Is Not Connected With Case

There were three interesting developments in the Frank case on Wednesday.

Decidedly the most important and most sensational was the giving out for publication by attorneys for Frank of an affidavit signed by George W. Epps, Jr., the fifteen-year-old newsboy, who repudiates portions of his testimony before the coroner's inquest into the death of Mary Phagan, and repeated by him later at the trial of Leo M. Frank.

Epps, in his affidavit, charges that he gave false testimony because Detective John Black persuaded him and Solicitor Dorsey encouraged him to do so.

FRANK GIVES INTERVIEW.

A second development was an interview given out by Frank in which he cursed the city detectives for what he termed the "framing up" of evidence to reflect upon his character.

He took as the text of his remarks the affidavits by Mrs. Nina Fromby in New York, a copy of which he received in the mail Wednesday morning.

The third development as the presentation by Solicitor Dorsey to Judge B. H. Hill of a habeas corpus petition directing that Frank be brought into court for resentencing.

Judge Hill signed this paper, but kept secret the time and date when Frank will be resentenced.

BLACK TOLD HIM TO.

Epps, in his affidavit, charges that Detective John Black told him to swear that on April 26, the day that Mary Phagan was murdered, that he (Epps) had sat beside the girl on a street car and had ridden into the city with her; that he had boarded the car at ten minutes to 12 and had left it with Mary Phagan at the corner of Marietta and Forsyth streets at five or seven minutes after 12; that Mary Phagan had informed him that she was afraid of Frank because the latter was accustomed to wink at her and act in an otherwise suspicious manner toward her.

All of these statements Epps now repudiates.

He says that he did ride into the city with the Phagan girl, but that he sat three seats behind her on the street car and that the only words he spoke to her was to greet her when they left the car at Marietta and Forsyth streets.

PROMISED HIM MONEY.

Epps declares he told Detective Black the facts but that the latter insisted upon him testifying falsely and had promised to furnish him money to leave town after the trial.

He says that prior to the Frank trial he was taken to the office of Solicitor Dorsey and that he was there questioned by the solicitor and the detective, and that in replying to a question from the solicitor he sought to make it plain that he did not ride on the same seat with Mary Phagan, but that the solicitor told him that this testimony before the coroner's inquest was all right and that he simply wished to refresh his memory.

According to the boy, after his interview with the solicitor, Detective Black followed him into the street and impressed upon him the necessity of sticking to his story about the time he got on and off the street car.

"He told me," says Epps in his affidavit, "that he wished my testimony to support Jim Conley's evidence."

HERE'S THE AFFIDAVIT.

Young Epps is now confined in the state reformatory at Milledgeville.

His affidavit repudiating his testimony and charging Detective John Black with having put words into his mouth was sworn to before J. Cleveland Cooper, clerk of the Baldwin County superior court, at Milledgeville.

It follows:

Stat of Georgia, County of Baldwin.

Now comes George Epps, who upon his solemn oath, deposes and says, I am fifteen years of age.

I reside at 246 Fox street, in the city of Atlanta, but at present I am at the reformatory at Milledgeville, Ga.

In August, 1913, I was a witness for the State against Leo M. Frank, who was at that time on trial for the murder of Mary Phagan.

I was also called as a witness by the solicitor general before the coroner's inquest over the death of Mary Phagan.

I now state that at both coroner's inquest and the trial of Leo M. Frank I swore falsely.

I now state that I was persuaded to give the false testimony in both of the before-mentioned hearings by Detective John Black.

I am glad of the chance to tell the truth and relieve my mind and conscience and clear myself of the perjured testimony given at both hearings.

I have prayed to God for forgiveness and I now want to explain all of the circumstances and influences that made me swear falsely at both of those hearings.

I will say that the only statement in my testimony that is of truth is that I knew Mary Phagan and that I rode on the street car with her on April 26, 1913, which was the last time I ever saw Mary Phagan alive.

INVOLVES JOHN BLACK.

To explain all of the particulars as to how I came to be led to give false testimony in the Mary Phagan case, I will begin with my first meeting with Detective John Black, of the police force.

My home is in the neighborhood in which Mary Phagan lived, and I knew her and most of the neighborhood knew her, and it was known throughout the neighborhood that John Black was making inquiries there for boys and girls or neighbors that knew her.

It was known generally in the neighborhood that I played with Mary Phagan and talked with her around the streets of the neighborhood.

In May, 1913, I was employed at Hirsch-Spitz Bed factory in the city of Atlanta, and one day in May, I was told by my boss in the factory there was somebody out at the front who wanted to see (Continued on PAGE 2, COLUMN 1.)

PAGE 2, COLUMN 1

GEORGE EPPS REPUDIATES HIS STORY AGAINST LEO FRANK

PAGE 2, COLUMN 1

SWORE LIES WHEN HE TESTED THAT HE TALKED TO MARY

Newsboy makes Startling Statement in Affidavit

Regarding Time in His Testimony me, and I went out and the man who was there and who wanted to see me was Detective John Black.

He then told me that he understood that I knew something about the Mary Phagan case.

I told him I didn't know anything about the Mary Phagan murder case, but in reply to his further questions, admitted that I knew Mary Phagan.

I also told him that I rode down town on the same car with Mary Phagan on April 26, 1913.

He asked me what time I boarded the car. And I told him it was between ten and fifteen minutes to 12.

He asked me how I knew the time, and I told him I had seen the time on a clock that is in Mr. Bryan's store.

There is in this store a coca-cola clock, and while standing in the door of this store, I noticed that clock.

The minute hand was then between the hours of 9 and 10 and the hour hand was nearly to 12 o'clock.

CLOCK NOT RELIABLE.

I know that this clock is not reliable as to time: sometimes it don't run at all, but it is the only clock that I saw; that is how I know the time that I was boarding the car.

I had been playing ball, and being Saturday, I did not work at the factory, but went downtown and sold newspapers, and I generally left home to go downtown about 11 o'clock, but I was afraid I would be late this day, April 26.

Black further questioned me if I saw Mary Phagan on the car, and I told him I did; that she say in the front seat on the left-hand side, facing forward, and I sat three seats behind her.

I did not speak to Mary Phagan on the car, but when we got off the car at Marietta and Forsyth streets Mary got ahead of me and I said "Hello, Mary, where are you going?"

Mary answered and said, "I'm going to get my money and go to see the parade," this day being Decoration Day and a holiday.

This was all of the conversation that I had with Mary on that day.

I last saw Mary as she was going over the viaduct south on Forsyth street, and I went under the viaduct to The Journal building, where the boys receive their papers to sell, and when I arrived at The Journal building the extra issue of The Journal was coming out and I immediately got my papers and went over to Five Points, where I sold them.

To fix the time that I must have arrived at The Journal building, I will state that the extra generally comes out from about 12:20 to 12:30, and I told all of these circumstances in detail to Detective Black when I first met him, as I am telling them now.

Black wanted me to say that I sat in the seat with Mary on the car, but I told him that this was not true, that I sat three seats behind her.

But Black said "That will be alright, you do as I tell you,", and then the whistle blew for noon at the factory and Black went away and the factory hands came out for dinner.

Detective Black asked me to come down to his office the next day to see him and I told him that if he would see my boss and get me off, I would come.

He then handed me a subpoena and read it to me and told me how much I would have to pay or go to jail if I didn't come down to his office, and that I could show the subpoena to my boss.

I did show the subpoena to my boss and the next day went to Black's office at police headquarters.

SHUT IN ROOM ALONE.

I arrived there about 2:30 in the afternoon.

At that time there were several newspaper men in his office.

He at once carried me to another room, where we were alone together.

He then questioned me again about coming downtown on the car with Mary and told me that I got on the car at ten minutes to 12 o'clock and that I sat on the seat with Mary and that we got off the car about five minutes to seven minutes after 12 at Marietta and Forsyth streets.

I again told Black that that was not true, and that I didn't want to lie about it.

He told that, that was all right.

"You go ahead and tell it just like I tell you."

I told him that I didn't know anything about what time we got off the car, and Black says, "Oh, you was raised in the country; you can tell the time by the sun, and it was about five or seven minutes after 12," and he said it just like that.

I told him that that was not true, but he made me agree to say it was as he told me and I said, "All right if you say I got to say it that way, all right, but it is not true," and he further said, "You do as I tell you and I will give you some money when this trial is over, and you can leave town if you want to."

I told him that I hated to leave town and leave my mother, and he said, "That is all right, I will fix it with your mother."

IF YOU SAY SO.

I told Black.

"All right, if you say so, I suppose I can do it."

He then told me that I must say that I talked to Mary on the car coming down town, and told me to say I deviled Mary about her sweet heart, and told her she must have a sweetheart at the pencil factory, and that I should say that Mary said:

"She didn't have any sweet-heart, but Mr. Frank down there acted suspicious toward her, that he came out ahead of her at nights when she would leave the factory, and would look at her and wink at her," and I should say that Mary said she was "afraid of Frank," and that she asked me to come to the factory every night to meet her because she was afraid of Frank.

I told Black when he had told me all of this to say "that he had me scared and that I would be afraid to go to the pencil factory" and besides "I didn't have time to go to the pencil factory to meet her if she wanted me to."

He said: "That is all right, you just say that just like you say it now, that is, you do not have time to go to the factory to meet her, but don't say anything about being afraid or what I told you scaring you."

He then urged me to go ahead and tell thee story just like he told it to me,

Repudiates Story In Phagan Case

GEORGE W.

EPPS, Little newsie who says eh swore falsely at trial of Leo M. Frank.

and I said, "All right, if you say I got to do it, I suppose I can do it."

GAVE ME MONEY.

After this talk with Detective Black in a private room at police headquarters, he gave me a nickel to buy a coca-cola, which I did, and he told me after I had my drink to come back to the inquest, which is being held on the second floor at police headquarters.

I did as he told me and waited on the second floor near where the inquest was being held, fifteen or twenty minutes, and then Detective Black and Mr. Donehoo came out to where I was.

Mr. Donehoo was blind and Black told him who I was, that I was George Epps, and "he knows something about the Phagan case," and Mr. Donehoo told me that I would be the next witness.

Detective Black and Mr. Donehoo then returned to the inquest room and in a minute or two my name was called, and I went in and was sworn and took the witness stand and told the story on the stand that Detective Black, had told me to tell, which I knew then was mostly a lie, but felt that I was obliged to tell lies, because Detective Black had told me it was all right for me to do so.

When I left the witness stand at the coroner's inquest, I went out into the hall and Detective Black came out and saw me, and he said, "George, you done all right, now stick to that story, for there may be other men come out to see you and question you about what you know, and you tell them that you don't know anything about it, and that you have been told not to say anything to anybody about the Mary Phagan case.

He then carried me down to a soda fountain by the side of police station and bought me a coca-cola and told me to go on home, and I met Mr. Watkins, a man who lives in my neighborhood, near the police station and we rode home together on the car.

SWORE TO LIES.

After I got home, I realized then that I had sworn to lies under the direction of Detective Black, and I felt mighty bad about it, and when I was getting ready to go to bed, I cried, and I said my prayers and I asked God to forgive me for the crime I done that day, and may mother saw me crying and I said my prayers longer than I usually do.

Mother asked me what was troubling me that I prayed so long and cried, and I did not tell or explain to my mother what I had done.

The next morning after I had been to the coroner's inquest, my father came home. He works at night, and he had the newspaper in which the testimony I had given before the coroner's inquest was printed, and that was the first that he or my mother knew of my having been before the coroner's inquest and what I had testified to.

Both my mother and father talked to me about the evidence as published in the newspapers that I had given.

They said they knew I did not know anything about the case and that the evidence published in the newspapers given by me was false.

My father was very mad and he tied my legs and whipped me for lying.

He whipped me with the strap.

I went to work at the factory after my whipping in the afternoon of that day.

Detective John Black and another detective named Scott came to the shop where I worked and sent in for me.

I went out to see them and they sent me back into the shop to get a boy named Boyd Towns to get him to say what he knew about the Mary Phagan case.

Scott and Black claimed that Boyd Towns had heard somebody say that they had heard Mr. Frank say something about being sorry he killed Mary Phagan, but Boyd Towns denied that he knew anything or had heard anything about it, and nothing came of it.

LOST MY JOB.

The next day following, when I went back to the shop to go to work, I was told that they had a boy in my place.

I did not hear anything more from or see Detective Black for some time.

One evening Detective Black came out to where I lived and told me to come to Solicitor Dorsey's office at 10:30.

My mother was present, when Black called on me that evening, and Black did not say anything to me about the case, further than to tell me to come to the solicitor's office the next morning.

I went to Solicitor Dorsey's office the next day, as instructed by Black.

I arrived there at 10:30 o'clock.

When I arrived, I was told that Mr. Dorsey was busy and couldn't see me just then, and I waited a few minutes in the hall near his office, then Black opened the door from Dorsey's office and said, "Hello, George; come in."

There was no one in the room but Solicitor Dorsey, Detective Black and myself.

Black and Dorsey sat near each other at a desk, and I sat over in a corner.

Mr. Dorsey said to me, "George, we have got you down here to refresh your mind on the testimony that you have given at the coroner's inquest."

He then questioned me about the time I had gotten on the car on April 26, and I then told him that Detective Black had directed me to say that I got on the car at ten minutes to 12.

He asked me if I sat on the seat with Mary Phagan on the way down town, and I told him I sat three seats behind her, and Black looked at me very hard.

Detective Black and Mr. Dorsey, while I was being questioned by Mr. Dorsey, would have private conversations between them that I could not overhear, and after one of these conversations Dorsey said, "You sat in the seat with her, didn't you?"

I then told him yes; I changed my seat and sat with her.

He wanted to know whereabouts on the route we were when I changed my seat, and I told him Chestnut Street.

Then he asked me what conversation Mary Phagan and I had on the car, and I told him that I was tired of talking about the case; that I had told all that at the coroner's inquest.

Mr. Dorsey, while he was talking to me at this time, had a kind of book before him, and there was typewriting on the pages of it, and he looked at this book all the time he was questioning me, and when I had told him that it was just like I had said at the coroner's inquest, he said, "That is all right; you just stick to that."

DETECTIVE FOLLOWED ME.

After this conversation in Mr. Dorsey's office with him and Detective Black, Detective Black followed me out in the hall, and told me he wanted me to be sure about the time, and not forget it when I got off the car with Mary on April 26, "and you stick to it as about seven minutes after 12" and said that the reason he wanted me to remember this and stick to this was that it supported Jim Conley's story as to time, and he wanted my time to be the same as the time Conley had said it was, and to agree with it.

I promised Black that I would do as he told me to.

Detective Black also said at this time that he had found a man by the name of Page, who was on the car with me on April 26 and had seen me sitting with Mary Phagan, and I told Black that that man must be a liar because I didn't sit with her.

He said, "That is all right, George, you do as I tell you; this fellow saw you in the seat with Mary," and at this time I told Detective Black that I didn't want to get into trouble and I wished I had not gone into this case, and he told me to go right on and do just like he said and he would see that I didn't get into any trouble.

And then I left Black in the hall and went out and when I got out on the street, I met a boy, who I know and who lives in the neighborhood, but I can't just recall his name.

He drives a horse and buggy and carries wall paper samples for the Piedmont Wall Paper company, and I got in the buggy with him and rode around while he delivered some samples and came back to town and I got out of his buggy at the corner of Mitchell and Forsyth streets, and I then went on home.

I heard nothing more of Black for some little time, and then one evening a man named Hunter, from Mr. Dorsey's office, came to my house and left me two subpoenas, one of which called me to Mr. Dorsey's office the next morning, and the other one to appear at Mr. Frank's trial when it began.

I do not know the dates.

COULDN'T SEE DORSEY.

The next morning, I went to Mr. Dorsey but could not see him, that he was at the jail with Mr. Black.

They telephoned him at the jail from his office, and then directed me to go to the jail to see him, and I did so.

Arriving at the jail I saw Mr. Dorsey and Mr. Black.

They said, Hello, George, and Mr. Dorsey felt through his pockets for something, and said he had something to ask me about, but he didn't have the papers with him, and would have to let it go to another time, and told me I could go home.

The next day I went directly to the court house.

I met Detective Black and he told me to go ahead and when I got on the stand to "do just as well as I done up to his office."

When I went on the stand at the trial, I was only allowed to tell, about riding on the car with Mary at the time that I got on the car as instructed by Black, and the time I got off of the car.

The day following, I was recalled by the defense and was cross-examined by Mr. Rosser, but was asked practically the same questions that I was asked the day before, and gave practically the same answers.

The above statement I give as correctly as I can recall in its details and do so in the hope of making myself clearly understood and in explaining how I was persuaded by Detective Black and encouraged by Solicitor Dorsey to swear falsely.

I have been sorry for this false swearing ever since the trial of Mr. Frank, and I say again I am glad of the chance to explain it and relieve my mind of the falsehoods I have told in this case.

I am willing and hope that this sworn statement will be delivered to Mr. Rosser, who was the attorney for Mr. Leo M. Frank, as it is every word true.

(Signed)

GEO.

W.

EPPS, JR.

Sworn to and subscribed before Me this 27th day of February, 1914.

(Signed)

J. CLEVELAND COOPER, Clerk Superior Court, Baldwin Co. Ga.

DORSEY DENIES CHARGE.

Solicitor General Hugh M. Dorsey when informed by a Journal reporter of George Epps' affidavit of repudiation, in which the former newsboy declared that he had testified falsely because he had been persuaded to do so by Detective John Black and encouraged to do so by the solicitor, characterized the charges as absolutely untrue, so far as they related to him.

Mr. Dorsey said that he did send for Epps and went over with him the testimony he had given at the coroner's inquest just as he did with the other witnesses.

"It was necessary for me to inform myself just what evidence these witnesses had in their possession," said the solicitor.

"Epps," stated Mr. Dorsey, "rattled through his testimony just as he did at the inquest and not one time, did he intimate that any portion of it was not true.

This is the first time I have heard that eh says any portion of his testimony was false.

Further than this I do not care to comment upon the matter."

FRANK'S STATEMENT.

Copies of the affidavit made the New York Times by Nina Formby have been received by Leo M. Frank, who from his cell in the tower furnished newspaper men with the copies together with an interview about this feature of his case.

In measured language Frank flayed the detectives and their methods, paying particular attention to Chief Newport Lanford, and talking interestingly of the Times' reply to the insinuation of the detective that the Formby woman was in Chattanooga at the time the affidavit was made in New York, and to his effort to connect Harry Latham with the story in the Times.

In the affidavit made to the Times, Frank said, many lurid details were added to those given by the Formby woman in the affidavit, which we secured in November.

It has been a cause of great surprise and wonderment to me as to how these vile and false stories about me, which were bandied about the streets, originated.

BEFORE ARREST.

Before my arrest I had been a man with an unreproached character.

I had not even been gossiped about, so how these stories sprang up and grew like mushrooms in a dark place, was something to wonder about.

Of course, we knew that someone started them.

When anyone reads this Fromby affidavit he necessarily arrives at the solution of at least a part of the problem.

I am glad to know now how to account for some of these remarkable rumors.

By weighing her affidavit, you can tell how these stories were started.

In reading her affidavit you find where she says that within ten days after my arrest, when the entire case was in a chaotic sate, that the detective said to her that they knew I was guilty and had to get me.

The detectives are sworn officers of the law paid by the money collected in taxes from citizens.

They are paid not only to ferret out crimes, but to preserve the peace and honor of every citizen.

If I am guilty if any man is guilty why should the case against him be bolstered and framed up?

Why cannot it stand alone?

What has happened to me is a guarantee that the same thing can happen to any citizen.

ANOTHER THOUGHT.

Reading the affidavit occasions another thought.

Chief Lanford said that Harry Latham was responsible for the interview and affidavit in the Times, which was purported to come from Mrs. Formby.

It seemed that Latham was in a southern city, not in New York at all.

He also said that Mrs. Formby couldn't have made the affidavit in New York, for at the time she was in Chattanooga.

The New York Times blames Lanford in no uncertain terms for this statement, and goes on to show that it investigated Mrs. Formby very carefully, established her identity by documentary evidence, and took every precaution to avoid a mistake before the article was published.

This shows, certainly, that Chief Lanford does not measure his words before he utters them, and the newspaper fittingly take exception to his statement.

I feel that the people of this county want me to have a square deal, and that they will not approve of the methods used by the detectives, as they are shown here by the Formby affidavit.

In the affidavit the Formby woman declares in substance that City Detectives Chewning and Norris made frequent visits to her house at 400 Piedmont Avenue, always bringing with them bottles of whisky, which had the seals broken.

WHAT FORMBY SAYS.

"I can stand a good deal of whisky as a rule," she says, "but one or two drinks of this liquor beclouded my mind in a very short time."

The woman declares that it is her firm belief that the detective started a campaign of drugging this liquor, which they brought to the house, in order to make it easier for them to extract from her the final false confession, which they succeeded in prejudice.

She was so befuddled by the drugged liquor that she didn't know what she was saying when she finally told them that Frank was a pervert and added at their suggestion the other details of her affidavit, she asserts.

The woman declares that the officers at the various interviews would repeatedly put the same questions to her, and when she failed to answer in the affirmative that they would start to work upon her fear of the police and to show the power which they exercise over women of her profession.

Frank talked interestingly of the visit to the tower of the Formby woman, which she also described in the affidavit.

Frank says:

SHE LOOKED AT ME.

I remember when she came up here and looked in at me.

As she came up, I saw a shadow and jumping quickly to a corner of the cell I caught sight of February, the stenographer for the detectives.

He, like a flash, jumped out of sight.

His actions are now explained by her affidavit.

She had been instructed by the detectives to ask me a number of questions, and he was sneaking up here to listen to the conversation.

Is that sort of conduct fair?

Is it right or just?

Should detectives or anyone else use such methods?

The Formby affidavit, in which the woman says in effect that drugged whisky and her fear of the detectives made it possible for them to force false statements from her, has already been published in part.

FRANK TO BE SENTENCED.

Habeas corpus papers for the production in court of Leo M. Frank for the purpose of being resentenced to hang as the slayer of Mary Phagan were presented to Judge B. H. Hill Wednesday by Solicitor Dorsey.

The papers were presented along with petitions hailing three negroes, Robert Paschal, George Hart and William Hart, into court to be resentenced as murderers.

Judge Hill signed all four habeas corpus papers presented to him.

The papers calling for the production of the three negroes in court were handed to the clerk and spread upon the minutes.

The negroes are cited to appear in court Friday morning at 9 o'clock to be resentenced.

In the case of Frank, Judge Hill signed the paper, but called up Deputy Plennie Minor and turned it over to him without making public the hour that Frank is to be brought into court to receive his sentence.

Although court attaches, because of Judge Hill's action in directing that his formal order be not made public, refuse to discuss the Frank sentence, it is said that several days will elapse before he will be brought into court.

As a result, it is believed that the time has been fixed either for Friday afternoon or Saturday morning.

BURNS IN NEW YORK.

According to a dispatch from The Journal's New Orleans correspondent Detective William J. Burns left that city Tuesday evening at 9:35 o'clock for Atlanta.

Mr. Burns did not get off his Atlanta branch stated that he merely passed through the city en-route to New York.

They declared they had no information as to when he intended to return to Atlanta.

Before leaving the city for New Orleans on Monday Mr. Burns said that he expected to get back here Thursday and take personal charge of his investigation into the Phagan murder.

It was rumored Wednesday that ever since he was employed in the case Mr. Burns has had two or three of his agents secretly at work here and that each day, he receives telegraphic and mail reports from them.

ROSSER'S CHARGE.

Frank, when he is resentenced, will be represented in the court by Attorney Reuben R. Arnold, as Luther Z. Rosser, senior counsel for the defense, is now in New York, where he has given to the press an interview declaring that his client did not have a fair trial owning to religious prejudice, and to the prejudice in the south of the employee class toward the employers.

In the New York interview, Mr. Rosser made the first public announcement that the defense will file an extraordinary motion for a new trial for Frank.

While it was considered certain that this move would be made, Mr. Rosser's statement is the first announcement from an attorney connected with the Frank defense.

Besides Mr. Rosser, Attorney Herbert Haas, of the defense, is also in New York, and various reports have been current as to the specific purpose of the two lawyers in making the trip.

DENIES SEEING OSBORNE.

Mr. Rosser denied, according to the published report of his interview, that he had visited William S. Osborne, the handwriting expert consulted by the state before the trial.

It is therefore considered probable that he made the trip in connection with the repudiation of her affidavit by Nina Formby.

Despite the fact that the state did not introduce the affidavit of the Formby woman in evidence, the defense has always attached considerable importance to it and to its repudiation.

Under the circumstances if the Formby woman's affidavit or testimony is used by the defense at all in its extraordinary motion for a new trial, it will be made the basis for a new and more vigorous attack upon the methods of the solicitor general and the detectives.

PREJUDICE NOT STRONG NOW.

While emphatic in his statement that Frank did not have a fair trial, Mr. Rosser, according to the reports of his interview, declared that the prejudice against Frank is not as strong now as it was at the time of the trial.

"While there is still a lot of misinformation and prejudice there," Mr. Rosser is quoted as saying, "I think people have changed their opinions.

If the trial court agrees, we are willing to have the case tried in Atlanta again, because we believe the people are awakening to a realization that a terrible mistake may have been made."

Mr. Rosser again declared that beyond a shadow of a doubt in his mind Jim Conley, the negro is guilty of the murder for which Frank has been convicted.

In his interview he laid particular stress on Frank's time alibi, quoting the testimony of little Miss Helen Kern, who swore that she saw Frank on the streets, two blocks from the factory, about 1:10 o'clock on the day of the murder, contradicting Conley, who said that Frank was in the factory certainly until 1:30 o'clock.

"Conley said Frank left the factory at 1:30," said Mr. Rosser, "and if we show this false, everything else Conley says falls to the ground."

LATHAM NOT IN CASE.

Reuben R. Arnold, of counsel for Frank, states most emphatically that Harry Latham, the former court bailiff, which published rumor has connected with the Frank case, is not in the employ of the Frank defense or any-one connected with it in any way.

If Latham is working on the case in any way, Mr. Arnold says, he is doing so without the knowledge or consent of Frank, his attorney s or any one else connected with the defendant.